The Project Management Profession Under Threat Transcript (Part 1)

Segment 1: Project Managers are Constrained in our Ability to Contribute

Idris Manley: Welcome to Future of Work 2.0. I'm your co-host Idris Manley.

Ross Martin: And I'm Ross Martin. Thanks for joining us. So Idris, the first topic we'd like to talk about today is compared to your peers in other functions like engineering, marketing, product management, that sort of thing, project managers are actually constrained in what we are able to contribute at companies by what we can describe as an invisible box holding us from the sides, underneath, and on top. And this box is actually both internally and externally placed upon us as a profession. So the idea is, from the external perspective, executives and people in other functions see the role of project manager in a very limited way in many cases.

Idris Manley: Or a very specific way.

Ross Martin: Very specific. You are there to manage the project. And in many cases, the tactical aspects of your project, which is making sure that deliverables are on time, and a plan is put together, and that the meetings are scheduled, and everyone knows what they're supposed to be doing, and you're chasing down people who are late on their deliverables. And that's the expectation externally. Internally, as project managers, we also help create these boundaries around ourselves by buying into that narrative of this is what we do. We deliver the project. And you focus on doing a really good job of delivering the boundaries of your project and not pushing and trying to contribute in different and more significant ways. So that's the concept around this invisible box around us and our profession. What do you think?

Idris Manley: Yeah, no, it's an interesting way of framing it. But yeah, I think that certainly if you've worked in project management for more than 10 plus years, you start to understand that there's a difference in your function and other functions in terms of how they're viewed and sort of limitations that come with that. And I think that what's interesting is that In most other functions outside of project management, there's a clear understanding of the business outcome or implications of what you're contributing to. What I mean by that is whether you're in engineering, marketing, product, etc. And inherently in the function is a discussion on how you're contributing and how it's supporting the business goals and objectives of the company. I think oftentimes with project management, you are being given a set of responsibilities, which is to deliver a particular project after the conversations around business goals have been discussed. an understanding of strategically what needs to happen, and so you're really, in a sense, being invited to the party on the tail end, where a lot of the strategic decisions have been made, and you're being asked, OK, this is your role in contributing to the business goals that's necessary. And as long as you achieve the project deliverables or the project outcome, you will have achieved your objective. And I think that because we're oftentimes not included in a lot of those preliminary conversations, we're looked at as individuals that our value add is really just in the delivery side, just the ability to deliver on that very specific set of activities or deliverables that are critical to the project, and the other functions will be responsible for ensuring that the business outcomes are being reached, and they will have all of the necessary conversations with leadership to ensure that's happening and to discuss their challenges to that. They will sort of figure that out, and you, Mr. Project, or Mrs. Project Manager, as long as you have gotten the project across the finish line, you have completed your contribution to achieving the business goal.

Ross Martin: Yeah, that's an interesting way to think about it. There's a reason that the other functions have C-level versions of each of them. It's that over time, I think that, you know, I remember, you know, CFOs, CEOs, CFOs, you know, have been around forever, but things like CMOs or chief product officers and things have not.

Idris Manley: That's relatively new.

Ross Martin: That's a more, it's a modern. Exactly chief technology officer TTO Has has also is relatively new in big tech in the world, but we're CPO worst worst chief project management exactly PMO or something like it's it gets a little awkward there, but there isn't any right so So the often in most companies I've seen, you know, sometimes you'll see a VP of PMO But often it's more like a director or senior director of PMO At most, yes. And so what happens is the reason these other functions have gotten into the C-suite is it became clear over time that you needed someone broadly thinking about your technology, or broadly thinking about your product strategy, or your marketing strategy, or chief revenue officer thinking about how you're going to sell this. In order to really strategically, the company to figure out where they're going, why that's the place to go, and what they're going after at a big scale. Strategic. Strategic, a BHAG level, a big hairy audacious goal type level, right? And then once they break that down into the programs or projects or initiatives they need to do, then somebody would then approach the leader of the PMO and say, I need a couple of project managers to assign to these things to make sure that they deliver successfully.

Idris Manley: That's middle management.

Ross Martin: That's middle management, exactly. So I think that's an interesting concept, the way that that's viewed. And so, you know, that's a bit about the perception on project managers, but- The external. We should talk a little bit about the internal, like why project managers have sort of accepted our position as, in its tactical, Why do you think that project managers are, you know, sort of shy away from behaving more strategically and just focus on delivering the projects successfully?

Idris Manley: Yeah, I mean, I think it's a combination. I think it's pretty complex. There's a historical component that relates to how the industry has really evolved from, you know, from the industrial era and construction and aerospace in terms of how how critical it was to be able to actually ensure that the tactics were being performed as needed for the project to be successful. And there never really being an inherent coupling between sort of the project delivery function and the strategic sort of business value and outcomes that it was looking to achieve. I think there's also historically project managers have been trained from the industry to really focus on methodology and being process oriented and that really being the strength and the value add that we bring to the table. And so there's been, I think we've over indexed in certain ways on methodology and process versus having a more diversified sort of set of assets that while they include methodology and process. It also includes strategic thinking and really knowing how to be aligned with business outcomes and goals and how to really engage at that level and understanding how your projects are really delivering value at that level and how you can optimize your project to even deliver even more business outcome value.

Ross Martin: It's interesting, both of us have interacted with C-suite executives across multiple disciplines at different companies. What's interesting is when you see the CXOs together, they don't hold too fast to their organizational boundaries. The CFO doesn't sit there and just let the other folks decide what we're going to do and then talk about how much it's going to cost and how we fund it. So everybody, when they're in that room, they're more peers, I suppose, with one lead person, the CEO on top. But everyone else is peers and their opinions and their contributions are not even remotely held to their actual responsibilities. Now, when they leave the room and they take assignments away, those are more aligned to the CTO takes away the engineering functional assignment. But when they're actually discussing strategy and figuring out where to take the company to be more successful They are they are all just generic top leaders in the company.

Idris Manley: Yeah, they're all contributing equally to the conversation exactly and it's an interesting point because I've always meant I've always highlighted how because you because they're so infrequent that you have delivery leadership in those meetings, whether it's the annual strategic planning discussions or your quarterly reviews, et cetera, they really are lacking the delivery sort of expertise. And that delivery expertise is oftentimes being provided by proxy by the functional leaders in those meetings, right? So marketing, product engineering, they are proxying and speaking on behalf of the delivery concerns, strategic or otherwise, that are needed to be discussed in those meetings versus having someone that is really of the delivery function.

Ross Martin: Yeah, no, I've seen it firsthand where a new strategy was rolled out at a company that I was working with, and it was the first time I had seen it, and I was thinking, how is this going to be delivered? And I was in the room when a couple of the CEO and the CFO and one of the others were talking about how now we need to pull together a delivery team to figure out how to deliver this. And I was thinking, now we need to pull together a team of people to think this through? So again, like you said, the delivery leadership wasn't in the room to already be on board with this, but also help weigh in on, let's think through. Because again, the idea is they come up with this strategy of we're going to do this. And the delivery person's job is not to say why you can't or what are the constraints. The delivery person is to say, yes, I can take care of this. But sometimes some of those things, you're kind of set up to fail.

Idris Manley: No, I mean, you would actually in certain instances, you might actually inform or cause the executives to rethink their strategy based on having a better understanding of some of the delivery considerations or constraints, whether they're timing or resource capability and competency or capacity. And so and a lot of times decisions are being, again, made by other functions or they're just making assumptions. And so I think it really goes back to your original question around sort of the limitations sometimes put upon project managers. I think there's a perception that the value in certain instances that PMO or project managers can offer is really at the more tactical level, at the operational level. Once the strategic decisions have been made, project managers can play a role in helping fulfill and execute on those strategies versus recognizing the value that they can play in helping to shape strategy, to help inform strategy, and contribute in a way that can make achieving the business outcome even more successful and more likely.

Ross Martin: Yeah, it I found that the times I've been in the room when some of these discussions are happening that my voice was Accepted as valid It's really was the tricky part was getting in the room.

Idris Manley: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's definitely a trust Exactly, and it's really how do you build trust and confidence? And it takes time you talk you're talking about leaders that perhaps are not accustomed to project managers or PMO playing that kind of role at that level. And so there's an education, there's being able to deliver and really shift how they perceive your contribution through your actions and results. It's also, on your part as a project manager, being opportunistic and looking for opportunities where you can actually demonstrate strategic thinking and contributions. And then there's also being able to understand what sorts of tools and technologies that may exist to help you up-level and help you contribute in more strategic ways as well. So I think it's really, it's multi-faceted in terms of how you overcome that. But I think certainly coming back to an earlier conversation, based on all of the constraints that exist in terms of AI and workforce management, PPM solutions. We definitely need to think about how we can contribute in new, more impactful ways.

Ross Martin: Yeah, absolutely. And as you mentioned earlier in the topic, you might not see this earlier in your career. When you are new to project management, the reality is at that point, you aren't really constrained as much. Perhaps with AI and some of these things, I think that may be changing over time. For now, your job is to really learn how to deliver projects, and develop the soft and hard skills that you need to do that, as well as grow over time your domain knowledge of the company you're working for, and what they're all about, and what they produce, and how they make money, that sort of thing. But when you get to the higher levels These things start to really stand out and it becomes more clear I think it was around when I hit the director level that I started to realize that there was a bit of a box around the role that I Couldn't perceive when I was earlier in my career

Idris Manley: Yeah, same here. I think when you're younger in your career, it's sort of blue ocean, right? There's plenty for you to learn.

Ross Martin: VP and CEO and all kinds of stuff seems so far away.

Idris Manley: Yeah, you're just trying to figure out how you can deliver more effectively, how you can work on your soft skills, etc. But I do think, yeah, I think around that director level or around that 10, 15, 12 year mark. As you start to gain mastery in delivering projects successfully, then you're like, okay, so what next? And you will find that typically what next is being able to deliver more projects at scale. So that means delivering more projects and perhaps you become a program manager and now you're responsible for more projects and being able to manage at scale and complexity. And then you're finding that maybe you're able to manage Larger projects with more complexity as well. And so you start in so as you start developing mastery in those areas, you know Okay, what next? Yeah, do you become a do I become a people manager? Do I do I move up strategically and handle strategic initiatives? Like how can I contribute continue to contribute more? impactful ways where I'm still learning and growing and I'm able to make a greater difference and impact on the business and I think that's where you begin to realize that if you're interested in doing more than just managing projects at scale with more complexity, you'll find that it becomes a bit more challenging to find those opportunities, unless you create those opportunities.

Ross Martin: Yeah, I remember being a little bit envious of my friends in product management or engineering or marketing. Their career path and options were clearer. And the kinds of things they needed to do to grow into the next level were also a little bit more concrete and understandable. And in some cases in engineering, it might be that you're now responsible instead of being an engineering leader of a team of 10 people, Something like that now you're gonna grow into where you lead 50 or a hundred people And that you're responsible for an entire product line or an entire technology arena that sort of thing And and then a CTO you you may not be anywhere near in your career to being a CTO But you can see what your CTO does and how she or he thinks about technology and how they think about Your product lines and your strategy of where your company's going and how they're a trusted advisor to the other sea levels when it comes to technology and and advocating for the engineering team and technology and what and so so you can see all those things and I remember being quite envious because I I looked in in our direction and It was much foggier Kind of how to how to rise and what that even looked like

Idris Manley: But I think it's inherent in, I think it's inherent in the way that we're viewed as being less strategic contributors, right? Because I think it's really like a pyramid for, I think in all roles, it's the pyramid, but certainly in project management where there were, you know, significantly disproportionately, there are more, you know, sort of, mid-level, junior, early stage project managers, and there are senior project managers within the context of organizational hierarchy. Yes, there are lots of senior project program managers, but when you start looking at it from a hierarchical perspective in terms of director, senior director, VP, it declines rapidly in our function. More than other functions. More than other functions. And why is that important to know or call out? It's because as you start to look around at other companies, you will find that there are fewer and fewer opportunities to perform a director level or senior director or VP level than other functions. So if you're in marketing and let's say you're a director of marketing or maybe you're a senior manager in marketing or product or engineering, and you leave and you look for other opportunities, they're going to be quite abundant. Because every company has sort of a general sort of understanding that they need those levels of functions in their companies. And so they're going to be abundant. But as a project manager, you will find some companies, they have senior director positions available. Some don't. Some have VP positions. Many don't. And so you're just going to find that as you move up, there's just fewer and fewer of those levels of opportunities available. And you're going to either have to accept working at a senior program manager level, or maybe a director level, if you find one of those opportunities. But you're not going to find a significant number of those opportunities like your other functional counterparts.

Ross Martin: You may top out at, say, the senior manager or director level.

Idris Manley: Yeah, and again, that's because companies, the perception or the way that they view our role, strategically, it reflects itself in the positions that they make available and that they put resources behind.

Ross Martin: Yeah. And we, we stuck it out and we managed to get to, to basically the top. We both hit 20 plus years later. Yes, exactly. That's the other thing that's interesting is that, um, some of the people I know solved this problem by actually jumping off of project management and going to another area. Uh, product management has the one that's the most common for the people I've come across.

Idris Manley: Yeah, I've seen a lot of operations. Operations, yeah, good point. And entrepreneurial as well. That's true. I've seen a lot of people actually.

Ross Martin: Yeah, they'll just say forget the career path and project management is just not there. But what's interesting is not only are there more opportunities on these other functions at the higher levels, but I've also found that the promotions come faster. Yeah. But again, that makes sense. If there's only one or two director-level project managers at your company, it's going to take a long time to get that spot. But if you move to product management and there's 20 or 30 director levels, and there's five VP levels, and there's a chief product officer, So again, we talked about how it's taken us, I would say that it's taken me, it took me about five years to make manager, about 10 years to make director, and about 20 years, a little less, to make VP. And most of the people I know in other functions, it's more like, three to five years per jump, per step.

Idris Manley: And similar for me, maybe just a little bit more for me than you described, but very similar. I think also it really sort of creates this notion where a lot of project managers, they tend to leave the companies that they're at. when they either, because they don't see the opportunity there, or maybe it's… Or they think the grass might be greener, right? Right, and then they find that, you know, then you have this sort of this ping-pong where you go somewhere else, and you're maybe two, three, a couple of years you're there, and either you get that promotion or you don't, but for whatever reason you leave, and then you find that perhaps the next company, you take a step down, And so maybe perhaps you were a director at a certain company and then the next company, you're a senior program manager, you know, and then you find yourself sort of ping ponging up and down because there's just so few opportunities at the level that you deserve to be available.

Ross Martin: Yeah, I think it's interesting. So the box is real. It may be invisible until you get 10 or 12 years into your career and then you start to see it but it's real and Like we said there are things you can do for yourself individually and there are things we can do as a profession to make ourselves more strategic and to expand or even break through the box concept and But it's there and it's a problem.

Idris Manley: Yeah. And I think the most important thing you can do is to begin being seen as a, it's not just a project delivery sort of specialists or value contributor, but to really, uh, to be viewed as a strategic contributor, you know, understanding some of the other functional areas, whether it's marketing or product or, or whichever domains you're that are adjacent or that you support and really understanding those domains, um, you know, extensively. and being able to begin discussing delivery within the context of understanding those domains in a way that, or understanding the strategy of the company and the goals of the company in a way that you can really begin to discuss delivery through the context of those domains or the goals of the company.

Ross Martin: Yeah, absolutely. I think that that makes a lot of sense.

Segment 2: Work Management Tools are Becoming a Threat to Project Managers

Ross Martin: Our next topic is modern project management tools actually are becoming a threat to project managers by enabling our peers and other functions to actually manage projects themselves without us. I mean, do you think that's true?

Idris Manley: Yes, and yes, they are becoming a threat, but it's not just the project management tools. It's also the communication collaboration tools like Slack and Jabber and Microsoft Teams. I think it's making it increasingly easy for, you know, for employees to talk and collaborate and plan and basically get things done without the project manager being involved. Right.

Ross Martin: Because in the past, often, you know, one of the roles that we would play, the soft skills that we need to develop was being able to pull these different functions together and make sure that they're actually talking to each other. Yeah. Yeah.

Idris Manley: It was like sort of hub spoke. Exactly. We were the hubs, you know, PMO or the project managers, the hub and the team members, the stakeholders were, they were the spokes. And so all information and, you know, Microsoft project, you know, for those of you that remember Microsoft project, That was really you know, that was our tool that contained all of the important information and all that information And so they had to collaborate with us so that we could sort of maintain and manage They didn't even have it installed and they didn't want it They wouldn't they would just have us do it You would create PDFs at most where they could exactly or put them into a PowerPoint but I remember even being in a situation where I would think I

Ross Martin: Why do I need to make sure that the product lead and the engineering later talking to each other? Hey, have you guys met each other? Can you please have a conversation? Yeah And so yeah, it's with modern tools actually are making that much easier Both the collaboration and work in project management as well

Idris Manley: Yeah, it's certainly not making us obsolete, but it definitely is making it easier for stakeholders to be able to plan, collaborate, execute without much need for a hierarchical or a hub-spoke sort of approach to getting work done.

Ross Martin: Yeah, but see, here's the thing that I don't understand. As these tools have gotten better over time, I and a lot of other project managers look at that and go, this is great. This is going to make my life so much easier to manage my team. I don't have to chase people down as much to statuses and to make sure that they're doing what they're supposed to doing. The tool can do a lot of that for me. It makes my life and my job easier. But that can also mean that I'm not as needed as I once was.

Idris Manley: It's interesting, I come from the client-server world. Microsoft Windows and you know, and you had all of your tools your Microsoft Office suite in addition to Microsoft Project and you know, and so I Understand the Gantt chart and how to create complex, you know, you know project plans very well and I'm very accustomed to you know when initiating and planning projects knowing how to gather information and to create scope and to put together really awesome, amazing Gantt charts to support that. But having said that, I really, I don't want to say struggle, but it was hard for me to really transition to the sort of the cloud-based, you know, project management tool sort of era that we're in now, right? Whether it's Asana or Wrike or Monday. I was really slow to that party. And I can remember having different direct reports and different people that I worked with that were much more familiar and much more comfortable with those tools than I was. And I struggled to really put my finger on why until some time of reflecting on it, and I realized that those tools were too simplistic. Coming from MS Project, I was accustomed to the complexity that it offered me to support in terms of how you create baselines and how you were able to really define all of these complex relationships. And I realized that a lot of these modern cloud-based project management tools, which now, again, like Monday and others, they refer to them as work, force management tools and project management tools all the time, oftentimes, but they were really designed specifically to reduce the complexity, the perception of complexity. And so they really have spent a lot of time from an R&D perspective, really understanding how to create these tools in a way that they're not overwhelming, and they present the ability to manage projects in a much more simple way and even the branding sort of really sort of moving away from referring to them as project management tools and instead we're referring to them as workforce or work management tools is another way of trying to brand it in a way that makes it easier for departments to feel comfortable being able to manage projects themselves.

Ross Martin: Well, and what's interesting is I'm sure that you've experienced this as well as a PMO leader is I've had to turn away people asking for a project manager to help support their project, right? Because we're all allocated towards higher priority projects. Yeah, we're busy. Yeah. busy and there's just no capacity. And the frustration for an operational leader, I can think of, where he was looking for somebody to help plan a project when he wasn't that familiar with the discipline of project management. He didn't really know what to do and everything. And at the time, again, not being a little naive and not thinking of these as a possible threat to our profession, in any way, thinking, well, hey, these newer cloud-based modern work management tools could help someone like that manage his own project, while we're focused on more important things. And not seeing that over time, more and more as these get better, that that they're going to realize and are realizing that basic, straightforward projects don't need a professional on them anymore. The tool can do the job. And I still think there will always be a place for some project managers for much more complicated, cross-functional, multi-discipline program type management, which touches lots of different areas, it's very hard for a tool to replicate that. But you maybe no longer need a 20 person PMO, you might need a six person PMO.

Idris Manley: Yeah, I mean, if you look at, you know, across all, you know, companies that I've worked at, if you look at the portfolio of project work, you probably, it's probably maybe 60-40, or 60% of that work is the more simplistic sort of variety. It's not terribly cross-functional. It doesn't have significant risks. It may even be projects that are semi-repeatable, where maybe they performed the project similarly, and so they understand the template, or they understand sort of the core aspects of what's required to successfully complete it. And then the other 40% maybe is, or 30% is of a more complex variety, where It is cross-functional. It does have certain risks that need to be managed very thoughtfully and carefully. Or maybe it's critical and strategic to the company and they need that level of oversight. Or maybe it's just that the size of the project is such that it just needs project management support. And so there is a significant number of projects that we probably don't need necessarily support, but I think that the collaboration tools certainly makes it easier. I can think of more than one PMO, or in particular, there's one PMO that I was asked to create where historically, the project management team was looked at as being more tactical. And there were questions around their value contribution, and so I was brought in to really sort of redefine and sort of to remake and sort of shift the perception of project management at the company. And so I recall several things that I did to do that, but every quarter before the quarter began, I would meet with the various department heads and try and understand, OK, what are your goals for the quarter? What are the projects? How can we help, et cetera? And I remember many conversations around, we need you guys for this. We don't need you for these other things, and this is why. And I realized, I noticed how that was becoming more and more the case, where there were more and more instances of projects that they felt comfortable managing themselves. And they were very specific ways or in areas that they thought that we could make an impact.

Ross Martin: So one of the things that, one of the concerns that I have about this, so let's say, you know, we get to a point where functions can, simple projects, as you described them, can be handled using the tools, and then you need some project managers, some experienced project managers to help with the really, the most difficult programs and initiatives. But how does a new project manager grow into an experienced project manager if they don't get to cut their teeth on the straightforward projects to get to that point? It feels like the on-ramp to the career could get short-circuited.

Idris Manley: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And if you consider AI as well, performing a lot of the project coordinator sort of, you know, activities, it becomes even more difficult to make that leap if you have no project management experience. And so, yeah, I mean, fortunately, not every company is adopting these tools in quite the same way. Not every department is adopting these tools in quite the same way. It'll all take time anyway. Yes, every department has a different sort of makeup in terms of how they view those tools and where they feel project management can support and not. And so hopefully with that, they will find opportunities despite the fact that these project management tools are becoming more widely adopted. But yeah, that will be a challenge for certain early stage project managers to really find opportunities where they can really kind of cut their teeth and get that experience that they need to be able to make a broader impact in their career.

Ross Martin: So yeah, as we said, tools is another part of the squeeze on the project management profession. They are getting better, and they are enabling people outside of project management to manage their own projects, or at least the simpler ones. And that gives a little less opportunities to project managers. in the traditional sense.

Idris Manley: Yeah, but there's still opportunities abound. We can still make an impact. We have to look for areas that are more critical to the business, understanding the strategy, being able to understand the strategy and understand strategic initiatives and goals that are needed, and to be able to carve out new opportunities based on your understanding of where the company is going and where there may be need.

Ross Martin: Right, and then understanding, getting more of a domain knowledge around how your company operates, the different functions, if you work regularly with sales leadership on some of their initiatives. Get to go on ride-alongs with some sales folks, understand sales better, understand sales operations better, become a valued person to have around. They realize that you get their discipline, that you understand the domain of what they're dealing with, and so that makes you a more valuable contributor and makes the interest in perhaps what they're willing to have you take on increase over time and your contribution can grow.

Idris Manley: Yeah, and then there's agile. We're continuing to become more agile, so there's plenty of opportunities on the agility side. Agile, in a sense, is certainly a more decentralized approach to trying to get things done, more collaborative, more peer-to-peer. And so there's always a need for someone to help to make sure that those pieces are working together in the most optimal manner. And so there's plenty of opportunity, but again, It is evolving, and so it's important to understand how it's evolving and where to focus your energy and efforts to make sure that you are on the positive side of the shifts that are happening. Exactly.